Scoring of Triangle race: Do competitors need SkyNAV SW, or can any GPS logger work?

[pchewn]

1) SkyNav is not required, but you will need to be able to see where the aircraft is relative to the course in real time. You will also need to be able to create a course within the software that is identical to the course that everyone else is flying.

2) There is a scoring program that is used in Europe but I have not seen it here. It is not really necessary yet since we do not have that many people competing.

3) Log file attached. It originally was listed as a log file but I changed the extension to txt so I could upload it. It still looks the same.

4) When the scoring program is being used, the data is transferred from the Ipaq to the scoring laptop via SD card. We also use the SD card to transfer the course to everyone's Ipaq.

Rick

That file is not in IGC format. It is NMEA GGA format (direct from GPS system). So I guess the "log" is different than the IGC file. I will be have to be able to create both, I suppose.

[rmat]

I am interested in trying out GPS racing and have downloaded the SkyNav manuals, but I don't think I'll be buying this.

Instead, I will soon be able to log GPS data on my Android phone using FRSKY sensor and telemetry as part of 2.4GHZ radio system. (Along with display of useful info similar to SkyNav program).

My questions are:

1) Is SkyNav actually required for racing, or can any GPS logging system be used for scoring?

A: Yes, SkyNavigator is current the only software that provides the code for scoring and therefore guaranties fair evaluation between competitors.

2) Is there a scoring program that is used, and what are the log-file requirements for entry into the scoring program? (I assume IGC file format?)

A: Correct, as already answered a question before. There is no log file required, all is needed for competitor to write the data onto card and hand it over to a "lap-top" guy.

3) Could someone upload a sample log file here so that I can see format, or point me to a format specification? (Not necessary if using IGC format, as I am familiar with that.)

A: Again, no specifical format, becaose the evaluation is all done on the few relevant parameters. It is all written in rules for GPS triangle flying.

4) For a typical contest, what method is used to transfer the log file to the scoring system? ("sneakernet" by carrying a USB stick or SD card, USB cord, serial port, wireless network, ????)

A: Pen and paper. It never fails.

Thanks, and I hope to get practicing soon and meet some of you at triangle race events. (e.g. Montague).

From 2012 there is one more unit official for evaluation of the flight: http://www.rc-electronics.org/index.php?link=rc_t3000
This is standalone unit for those of us who dont want to fiddle with phones, PDA's ect.

I need to correct Mike, SkyNavigator can actually guide you with voice and can do that wery acurately (sometimes much more than your navigator). You just need to enable the speech parameters of what you would like it to say. In fact, the speech is so good, you can actualy fly by yourselfe without any problems and can also arm the task with a switch on your radio.
Basically all you need is already in that package, you just need to use it.

Regards,

Matej

[rmat]

One more if I may,

push the GPS frequency as far as it goes. Just to compare, my top speed in speed round with 1Hz (once per second) was 104km/h, but ended with a broken plane, becaose i went over the edge, and top speed with RC-electronics 5Hz was 122,5 km/h, and still room to improve.
Also the refreshement rate of the display is wery important, as I see it is wery important to tune the whole system.

Will be looking forward to see progress

Regards,

Matej

[pchewn]

One more if I may,

push the GPS frequency as far as it goes.
Matej

Unfortunately, using the standard FRSKY components (sensors, sensor-hub) only provides a 1Hz refresh rate on the GPS. Other people have "pushed" this by custom sensor-to-telemetry hardware and protocols. But I want to start with the standard and see if it is good enough.

Without actually flying with the system, I find it hard to believe that the screen and GPS refresh rate of 1Hz is not good enough. Because:

A) The pilot is not looking at the screen, he is looking at the plane. (In fact, I will place very little effort into making a nice screen display and concentrate on audible messages.)
B) Therefore, the co-pilot would have to see the screen and then tell the pilot what to do.
C) OR the application makes a sound or voice which the pilot then reacts to. It takes about 1 second to say "Height 500. 20 meters. Right 5" (height, distance to turn, angle to turn)
D) So in all cases, it looks (on paper) to work at 1hz because conveying the information to the pilot takes about 1 second.

BUT I HAVE NOT FLOWN WITH THE SYSTEM YET. So I may end up pushing the refresh after trying it out. But I want to crawl before walking.


One further method of increasing the refresh rate that I have considered is "predictive position".
Take current position and speed. Predict positions .25'' .5'' .75'' from now. Use predictive position to "advance notice" if the pilot has achieved the turn point.
Dangers: 1) Predictive positions could never be entered into the log file for scoring 2) Chance of cutting the turn based on predictive position


This brings up another point: For the scoring, how is it calculated that the aircraft has "achieved" a turn point?
A) A position fix within some radius of the turn point?
B) A position fix within some sector of area on the "outside" of the turn point? (How is sector defined?)
C) Some other method?

I know that SKYNAV SW uses method B where there is a 90-degree angle at the turn point to define a sector that a position must be logged in. But it is unclear whether this is just to inform the pilot, or part of the actual scoring program and rules.

[pchewn]

Fr1) Is SkyNav actually required for racing, or can any GPS logging system be used for scoring?

A: Yes, SkyNavigator is current the only software that provides the code for scoring and therefore guaranties fair evaluation between competitors.
2) Is there a scoring program that is used, and what are the log-file requirements for entry into the scoring program? (I assume IGC file format?)

A: Correct, as already answered a question before. There is no log file required, all is needed for competitor to write the data onto card and hand it over to a "lap-top" guy.
3) Could someone upload a sample log file here so that I can see format, or point me to a format specification? (Not necessary if using IGC format, as I am familiar with that.)

A: Again, no specifical format, becaose the evaluation is all done on the few relevant parameters. It is all written in rules for GPS triangle flying.
4) For a typical contest, what method is used to transfer the log file to the scoring system? ("sneakernet" by carrying a USB stick or SD card, USB cord, serial port, wireless network, ????)

A: Pen and paper. It never fails.
Thanks, and I hope to get practicing soon and meet some of you at triangle race events. (e.g. Montague).

Matej

OK, this is yet another answer. In this case, you are telling me that the SKYNAV for each pilot does its own scoring, with the scoring calculated within each pilot's SKYNAV system. So if I want to create my own, I will need a scoring calculator built into my system. It will have to use the SKYNAV parameters for determining achievement of turn-points, calculations of start penalty, keep track of task time, count laps, and calculate time for final lap (all parameters used for scoring).

Not hard to do, but a very different answer than I expected. I expected to provide a GPS log file (NMEA or IGC format) to an official scoring program. But I see that the official scoring program is actually built into the SKYNAV SW. Therefore, the pilot only provides the score RESULT to the score-keeper, not the actual log file.

In order to test/prove that my system scores flights the same as SKYNAV, can anyone provide a GPS log files of actual flights, along with the score results from SKYNAV? I could then enter those log files into my system to make sure I get the same score.

[RickS]

I do not have a matching pair of files for both the gps log and the result log. Attached is a result log which will show you what it looks like. Next time I get to fly I can get a matching pair for you.

The speed is labeled mph but it is actually kph.

Rick

[pchewn]

Thank you for the file, it will come in real handy for figuring this out! It all makes perfect sense.

[yyz]

I need to correct Mike, SkyNavigator can actually guide you with voice and can do that wery acurately (sometimes much more than your navigator). You just need to enable the speech parameters of what you would like it to say. In fact, the speech is so good, you can actualy fly by yourselfe without any problems and can also arm the task with a switch on your radio.
Basically all you need is already in that package, you just need to use it.

Regards,

Matej

Thanks for that correction, Matej. That's great news. I'll have to give that a try the next time I fly.

Also, can I please ask you to visit the thread I just created (http://www.rcaerotowing.com/forum/sh...ns-from-Europe) and post some of your experiences and thoughts about GPS Triangle Racing in Europe?

We are in desperate need of information and I know that many members would greatly appreciate any information you can pass down.

Thank you in advance and I look forward to reading about your experiences,

Mike

[hangspeeder]

Hi GPS fans,

i am an new user from Germany on this side, i found your infos over the search for GPS Results and Skynavigator.

When you want to fly with skynavigator today you must use the actual Hard and Software. There is no chance to import anything and it´s a closed system. The format is the only for skynavigator. You can use JETI and WEATRONIC and Telemtrei with WS-TEC Link Vario hardware with BT interface to submitt the data to the handheld or to a windows Handy (max Version 6,5).

When you need more informations please contact Uli from TUN modellbau in swiss. http://www.tun.ch/

I also work on a software package to make a simple flight result out of all logging files, not real logging as skynavigator, but with some very good features for modell sailplanes. We work today to bring all to a internet server based platform (an not as a forum as today http://rc-volkslogger.userboard.org/index.php), but we have lernt a lot over the last year to handle a hardware and logging protocolls and calculate the flight and action parts for each hardware.

its in germa, but a short overview http://rc-volkslogger.userboard.org/...ilfe-t416.html

and the first test result in engl. http://rc-volkslogger.userboard.org/...jose-t420.html

You need more information , please contact me gps-tools@online.de

best regards
Martin

[yyz]

Once per second.

This is probably fine for practice but as you start flying faster, the deeper into the turnpoints you'll likely by flying waiting for that one report that says you've made the turnpoint. You can find the TIM and LEA series of ublox GPS receivers on Ebay in the $30-40 US range. They can generate position reports at 4 Hz and are great receivers.

Hope that helps and keep up the good work! This stuff is not easy,

Mike